Thanks so much, Paul for your responses so far, and for collecting further information from my questions.
I really like how this has been thought through regarding SimScore revisions and auto edit on proposals, as I can see that truly helping proposal authors with revisions (and capturing everything from comments).
Looking forward to hearing more.
Thanks for sharing this proposal @maets23
(Great questions @coffee-crusher)
From my POV the way we’ve been working over the past year (or moer) actually is very similar to the flow you’re suggesting.
Rari DAO has already been creating mechanisms that allow new working groups to form, take ownership of certain functions, and be accountable for them. Most of these initiatives starting in the forum.
And while I understand how AI tooling like SimScore could help speed up some parts of the process, I’m not sure if it’s something the DAO would benefit from at this point.
Also, on the $8k integration fee: is this same plugin integration going to be offered to other DAOs too? If so, would there be an option for Rari to just go with the usage-based fee instead?
following @coffee-crusher 's suggestion above: a breakdown of the $8k for “Discourse Plug-in Integration with SimScore” can be helpful to understand better the ROI for this proposal.
Yes if a user, wrote the same or similar opinion over and over again it would influence the SimScore analysis. Those responses would more highly prioritized.
We have not worked directly on this problem yet. However there are several ways to counteract this.
We could specify these into the Discourse plug-in.
Paul
Here is a detailed breakdown.
Milestone 1: Kickoff, Planning, and Initial Integration
Milestone 2: Proposal Editing, Justification & Workflow Enhancements
Milestone 3: Final Testing, Polishing & Deployment
The work will be evenly divided over the 3 month development phase.
The current specification, leans towards having a minimal number of SimScore Revisions per proposal, so that the output doesn t clutter the forum.
Whan a proposer, chooses the edit button on the topic, they will have an option to run the SimScore Revision before they make their own revisions. Should they wish to, the proposer could then create their own revision with manual edits as they see fit.
The SimScore justificaion would be a reply in the forum.
Thank you Jaf,
The long term vision for Simscore is to create modular products that solve the issues related to proposal quality, decision throughput and effort hours.
The blend of modules we envision include, forever questions, unbiased synthesis of community opinions, change management approaches and Ephemeral Small Group work.
The Discourse / SimScore API integration project we are proposing here involves the unbiased synthesis of community opinions. The need for this type of integration depends mostly on scale. When there is a small group of 3-6 people the group dynamics can often lead to good results that avoid groupthink, anchoring and social / power influence.
This proposal is designed for those instances where there is scale due the number of replies and a large diversity of users. The SimScore approach will ensure that the community’s feedback is incorporated in an unbiased, auditable and deterministic way. As an example when there are only 20 ideas to consider, there are only 190 pairs of ideas….when there are 200 ideas to consider there are 19,900 pairs of ideas. This geometric growth is the reason that delegate effort (time) can become overwhelming. SimScore’s purpose is to reduce that overwhelm while also improving the decisions and throughput.
I hope this response meets the needs of your concerns.
Yes we will be proposing this solution to other DAOs. At this time there is no option for RARI to simply pay the usage fee.
There is a detailed breakdown of the work to be done. I hope this satisfies your question.
Paul
Thank you for putting up this proposal.
While automating parts of the governance process is an interesting idea, we think this tool is better suited for bigger DAOs, where the workload on delegates and the number of proposals and feedback is higher. Currently we don’t think having this service would really impact the DAO’s day-to-day activities to justify the costs.
Thank you for letting us know about this tool.
I do not believe our DAO is in need for a tool like this. Overall costs are quite high for just a discord bot, and I personally would not benefit in using it. While most delegates are not using discord that often, I do not see why they couldn’t ask Grok or Chatgpt to generate simliar results, which are basicaly free to use.
Looking to the amount of proposals we have put up in a years time, which would be roughly 20, that would mean we would be paying $500 per proposal just to have a discord bot improve and edit our proposals.
Once again, I do not believe we need this.
I have to agree with @forexus comment regarding the cost per proposal - $600 is too high a cost for nice to have some additional benefits. Currently the pricing model for RARI is greater than the ROI for governance improvements, and it’s not something that I can support.
interesting idea, real impact @Jose_StableLab
no need @forexus
nice to have @coffee-crusher
Thanks for your objections. I’ll try to make some points here to eleborate and possibly change opinions.
RARI DAO is expanding the delegate pool and will experience increases in replies / rationales. This is the goal of the Delegate Incentive program. To date the number of delegates interacting per proposal has ranged from 10-23.
However the current number of delegates with over 2,000K RARI is 38. This means RARI can expect more inputs from delegates scattered through the Discourse forum and other places in excess of 30 or 40 replies soon.
Research consistently shows human decision quality degrades when processing more than 20-30 complex information inputs simultaneously (Hwang & Lin, 1999; Streufert et al. 1967).
Also my personal business experience has found the same thing as recorded in my 2018 article. CEO: Everything breaks down after 40 people.
By this view, RARI DAO is right on the cusp of a new paradigm. Based on research., personal experiences and the current state of large DAOs that move inextricably towards centralization: The question is would it make sense for RARI DAO to be pro-active and avoid the proven pitfalls that can be expected as RARI moves to the next level of scale.
Gen AI could give similar results for free. @forexus
This statement is not born out by evidence.
Gen AI may overrepresent some perspectives, under represent others or simply hallucinate. Also it does not meet a DAO fundamental value of transparency. Gen AI is a black box. There is no audit trail or repeatability.
Here is an article that makes the case further by Yann Lacun, Meta’s Chief Scientist: Generative AI Sucks: Meta’s Chief AI Scientist Calls For A Shift To Objective-Driven AI
SimScore provides a consistent statistical baseline that doesn’t shift. It is transparent, auditable and repeatable. This constrains the variability of an AI agent, as an interpreter of consensus patterns rather than a primary synthesizer.
The Discourse integration we have proposed in not a Discord bot. A complete spec has been provided above clearly shows that.
In response to the quote above, The integration costs make up $400.00 / proposal. And are 1 time cost. The ongoing cost of $ 120.00 / proposal. Relative to the cost of the Delegate incentive program $6,000 / proposal it would increase cost by 2%.
That being said, the proposal still needs to add value.
Based on the delegate incentive proposal and an in-depth chat with @jarisjames, there appears to be an opportunity. For each proposal, delegates must post a written rationale. This makes up a third of the incentive payments. However, no unbiased analysis is done with these rationales to attempt to improve the proposal quality. Being that the delegate effort is already made and is paid for, it seems to us that a 2% premium for such an analysis would be warranted.
Regarding the Discourse integration, following an in depth convo with @jarisjames, it is clear that the work he is doing for the Delegate Incentive DashBoard is aligned and duplicative. For this reason, I would like to work with him and any others to prepare a new specification to eliminate this duplication. This could lower the integration costs significantly and possibly to $0.00.
We do not pay $6000 per proposal, this is a misrepresentation of the delegate incentive program.
I am in principal against high spend on further governance items. The delegate program is new and we must see how it performs as it progresses. It will be adjusted as we observe delegate behaviour under this program. I see no significant value from hurriedly adding on further complexity and cost at this stage.
We discussed this feature at proposal stage and I’m curious if you already have an integration with the daospace tooling or other similar dao tooling which Jaris or Sixty have built?
Just to clarify, I’m not affiliated with SimScore or this proposal.
The Delegate Incentive Dashboard I’m building is a separate initiative under daospace, focused on summarizing forum rationales and tracking delegate performance.
While I had a conversation with @maets23, I haven’t committed to any collaboration, and the tools I’m building serve different goals than what’s proposed here.
HI,
No, I have not had any interation with @jarisjames or @sixty regarding integrations. My only interaction with RARI Foundation or the DAO so far is a 30 min call with @JanaBe, which led to a 5 minute presentation during the Tuesday Governance call and an hour long conversation with @jarisjames.
Thanks for the clarification. I like your product and think it’s the start of something really useful but there’s probably better, bigger DAOs that would benefit more and have more robust treasuries and funding programs. I’d recommend you post to scroll, zksync, arbitrum and optimism. They’re much better fits than rari in my opinion and all are actively funding and have more money. Best of luck and id support in future if I believe the value prop is there for Rari.
@cr1st0f @Jose_StableLab Thx for the advice. Scroll governance has the proposal and is deciding. I’ll post on optimism, zk nation and arbitrum within the next week.
@bitblondy @cr1st0f @Jose_StableLab @coffee-crusher FYI…SimScore was approved by google marketplace this week. Here is a link if you’d like to try it out. Note: we are working out the user experience, so pls let us know any difficulties you may have. SimScore - Google Workspace Marketplace